saturnring11
07-22 04:21 PM
While we are all sharing about our Amway solicitation experiences, let me share what I've seen in the last few years.
Background: In the last 6 years, I've been approached over 2 dozen times in the Bay Area. Things got so bad that the same guys have approached me more than 3 times in some cases before realizing that they've already talked to me before.
Incident #1:
A guy approached me while I was at the mall saying "hi" and striking up a conversation. During our short chat, this 20-something desi guy proceeds to tell me that he is the CIO of Fox News. At which time I pull out my iPhone and look him up using my LinkedIn app under the guise of adding him to my network. Turns out he is an engineer at a local company which he covers up by being embarassed and saying "I haven't updated my profile." I joke about how he moved up in his career so quickly - he then makes an excuse and walks away. I never hear from him again. Another reason to love technology!
Incident #2:
I get approached while shopping at the local GAP store. Being a veteran of this form of solicitation, I respond by saying that I work for the San Jose Mercury News and that we are doing a story on Multi-Level Marketing schemes. I ask him if he knows anyone who would be willing to chat on the record. This guys says "Nope, don't know anyone" and walks away. I never see him again...
Incident #3:
I am at the Nike store and get approached by this guy asking me if I work at Google (I do not). I tell him "Nope" and walk away before he can ask me another question. I have been approached by this same guy 2 more times at other stores (within 6 months) asking me similar questions. The 3rd time, I tell him - "We've spoken before - No, I don't work at Google, No, I'm not from Delhi and No, I'm not interested in what you are selling." He is stunned and walks away with his tail between his legs :)
Incident #4:
The local Fry's is a popular hang out for Amway-types. I learned the hard way because I made my first mistakes here. Both guys that struck up a good conversation with me turned out to be Amway types. After the 2nd phone call, I tell them that if they call me again, I will report them to the authorities and Fry's for illegal solicitation and harassment.
This stops both people in their tracks. I never see them at Fry's again!
Bottom-line: Hold your ground, use technology and don't be afraid to kick them around a little bit. Saying "No" is golden!
Background: In the last 6 years, I've been approached over 2 dozen times in the Bay Area. Things got so bad that the same guys have approached me more than 3 times in some cases before realizing that they've already talked to me before.
Incident #1:
A guy approached me while I was at the mall saying "hi" and striking up a conversation. During our short chat, this 20-something desi guy proceeds to tell me that he is the CIO of Fox News. At which time I pull out my iPhone and look him up using my LinkedIn app under the guise of adding him to my network. Turns out he is an engineer at a local company which he covers up by being embarassed and saying "I haven't updated my profile." I joke about how he moved up in his career so quickly - he then makes an excuse and walks away. I never hear from him again. Another reason to love technology!
Incident #2:
I get approached while shopping at the local GAP store. Being a veteran of this form of solicitation, I respond by saying that I work for the San Jose Mercury News and that we are doing a story on Multi-Level Marketing schemes. I ask him if he knows anyone who would be willing to chat on the record. This guys says "Nope, don't know anyone" and walks away. I never see him again...
Incident #3:
I am at the Nike store and get approached by this guy asking me if I work at Google (I do not). I tell him "Nope" and walk away before he can ask me another question. I have been approached by this same guy 2 more times at other stores (within 6 months) asking me similar questions. The 3rd time, I tell him - "We've spoken before - No, I don't work at Google, No, I'm not from Delhi and No, I'm not interested in what you are selling." He is stunned and walks away with his tail between his legs :)
Incident #4:
The local Fry's is a popular hang out for Amway-types. I learned the hard way because I made my first mistakes here. Both guys that struck up a good conversation with me turned out to be Amway types. After the 2nd phone call, I tell them that if they call me again, I will report them to the authorities and Fry's for illegal solicitation and harassment.
This stops both people in their tracks. I never see them at Fry's again!
Bottom-line: Hold your ground, use technology and don't be afraid to kick them around a little bit. Saying "No" is golden!
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ivar
07-22 02:24 PM
Is it possible to know who has given red and where do we find the comments.
I was heart broken too when I got my first red. And I got it just because I agreed with someone that it is not a good idea to staple new passport and old passport together and suggested to use a rubber band to hold the two passports together. The person who gave me a red said in the comments section "I will surely use a rubber band to hold my passports together." Not sure if he was being sarcastic - but I stopped worrying about red dots now.
I was heart broken too when I got my first red. And I got it just because I agreed with someone that it is not a good idea to staple new passport and old passport together and suggested to use a rubber band to hold the two passports together. The person who gave me a red said in the comments section "I will surely use a rubber band to hold my passports together." Not sure if he was being sarcastic - but I stopped worrying about red dots now.
kumarc123
10-06 07:22 PM
We should follow up on this. US Economy really can take advantage of our buying power. If they give us GC, people will start buying and stop sending their savings to off-shore. Also, buying each house comes with at least 50K other expenses (remodelling, furniture etc) and that will also help the economy.
IV should follow up on this topic with Lawmaker and see if they can understand the logic here.
I can't concur with you less, we need to send this message to American people, also immigrants in this country are the ones, who start maximum numbr of small businesses, more number of borrowing of laons from banks etc
Lets make something happen,
IV should follow up on this topic with Lawmaker and see if they can understand the logic here.
I can't concur with you less, we need to send this message to American people, also immigrants in this country are the ones, who start maximum numbr of small businesses, more number of borrowing of laons from banks etc
Lets make something happen,
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venetian
05-11 03:38 PM
Kodi,
From the bottom of your heart can you tell the forum that there was no discrimination against Tamils in Sri Lanka after its independence from Great Britain.
War is in the northern and eastern provinces. Sinhala and Muslims were driven out of this area by the LTTE. Tamils live all over the country. Tamils lead regular life in other areas of the country that's not succumbed to the war, this includes the capital, colombo. They conduct business, attend universities/schools, they lead a regular life just like any other sinhala or muslims. Tamils lead prosperous lives in other parts than the north and east. The reason they can't live in the north or east is due to their own LTTE, the group that was supposed to liberate tamils.
If there's ethnic cleansing or genocide against tamils, Sinhala and muslim people should be killing tamils all over the country. This is not case in Sri Lanka. I have tamil friends and classmates, we went to school together. How come there are tamil ministers in the parliament. Parliment members Lakshman Kadirgamar and Jeyaraj Fernandopulle both tamils and were killed by the LTTE not the gov. How can this be ethnic cleansing?
From the bottom of your heart can you tell the forum that there was no discrimination against Tamils in Sri Lanka after its independence from Great Britain.
War is in the northern and eastern provinces. Sinhala and Muslims were driven out of this area by the LTTE. Tamils live all over the country. Tamils lead regular life in other areas of the country that's not succumbed to the war, this includes the capital, colombo. They conduct business, attend universities/schools, they lead a regular life just like any other sinhala or muslims. Tamils lead prosperous lives in other parts than the north and east. The reason they can't live in the north or east is due to their own LTTE, the group that was supposed to liberate tamils.
If there's ethnic cleansing or genocide against tamils, Sinhala and muslim people should be killing tamils all over the country. This is not case in Sri Lanka. I have tamil friends and classmates, we went to school together. How come there are tamil ministers in the parliament. Parliment members Lakshman Kadirgamar and Jeyaraj Fernandopulle both tamils and were killed by the LTTE not the gov. How can this be ethnic cleansing?
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drirshad
07-03 06:27 PM
Wish the Senators a Happy Independence Day in the mail ....
Lets go guys its time to fill up those emails and fax machines .....
Lets go guys its time to fill up those emails and fax machines .....
ramus
07-04 09:55 AM
Good job guys.. Lets try to get in touch with NPR asap..Also help Mecaca with whatever he need.
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logiclife
01-29 12:21 AM
How do lawyers benefit from it? Thanks.
Immigration lawyers have tendency to side with employers, not employees on the policies of legal skilled immigration. That's one reason.
Another reason, even simpler is that labor substitution means extra business.
Immigration lawyers have tendency to side with employers, not employees on the policies of legal skilled immigration. That's one reason.
Another reason, even simpler is that labor substitution means extra business.
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Legal
07-03 10:41 PM
documentation >to <verifying no US citizen worker was available for a given job) -
should have been documentation verifying
should have been documentation verifying
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PlainSpeak
01-14 04:25 PM
Sorry lady - enough of your billowing hot air - you have wasted enough people's time (including mine). If you have anything worth sharing you are free to do so - but I am not holding my breath for it.
And of course, you can continue to be in your delusional world. You certainly have not demonstrated any credibility to be asking people to meet any "conditions" whatsoever.
Wasted !! Wasted !! Wasted !! Wasted !! You #$%#$W!E@#%$%^
Do you even know the meaning of wasted and blowing hot air. That is what you are doing and you cannot even be polite while doing it. Nooooooo you have to be abusive
Delusional world !!!! !!!!!!
I am wasting my time typing out replies only because @#@#$@#$@#$ like you have a keyboard and no sense respect abnd a bloated sense of self. Why the hell can you just not reply back and get a good night sleep.
There is no need or requirement for me to demonstrated any credibility to people like you. Stand up and tell me of one nice thing (Just one) you have said in the whole post. Just one ????????
You are not a person worth showing credibility to. Do something nice to people and ONLY then expect them to worry about their credibility with you.
Now get off this post and stay off
And of course, you can continue to be in your delusional world. You certainly have not demonstrated any credibility to be asking people to meet any "conditions" whatsoever.
Wasted !! Wasted !! Wasted !! Wasted !! You #$%#$W!E@#%$%^
Do you even know the meaning of wasted and blowing hot air. That is what you are doing and you cannot even be polite while doing it. Nooooooo you have to be abusive
Delusional world !!!! !!!!!!
I am wasting my time typing out replies only because @#@#$@#$@#$ like you have a keyboard and no sense respect abnd a bloated sense of self. Why the hell can you just not reply back and get a good night sleep.
There is no need or requirement for me to demonstrated any credibility to people like you. Stand up and tell me of one nice thing (Just one) you have said in the whole post. Just one ????????
You are not a person worth showing credibility to. Do something nice to people and ONLY then expect them to worry about their credibility with you.
Now get off this post and stay off
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abhijitp
07-04 11:48 AM
I tried xls, and txt. it wont upload.i have total 655 contacts. The file size is small but still it wont upload on the iV site.
Maybe you should do that too.
Maybe you should do that too.
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hydboy77
09-23 06:13 PM
The only missing information to give an almost 90% accurate prediction of the visa bulletin movement are
1. Will DOS do spillover every quarter or only once every year?
2. What would be the number of eb2 and eb1 visa demand from ROW from October 2009 to September 2010?
the answer to question 2 can be obtained by getting the number of pending PERM Eb2 petitions with DOL, if we get the answer to question 1 from DOS then we can predict the visa bulletin with almost 90% + accuracy.
I don’t think DOS will do a quarter spillover. If DOS does not do a quarter spillover then it will disastrous for EB2 India because if DOL releases a ton of pending EB2 ROW perm applications they have been holding up for over an year in June-July-august 2010 time then DOS might not do a spillover at all for Eb2 India.
Thanks Sachug22.
Dec 2009 Visa Bulletin & Jan 2010 Visa Bulletin should give us clear picture about EB2 - I forward movement (if USCIS does spill over every Quarter this fiscal year - Most likely I expect the spill over to occur every Quarter this fiscal year).
Other important indicator would be the spillover received by Eb2 - I till Sep 2009. If spillover is more(clearing majority of 2004 - Jan 2005 cases) that would be the best case scenario.
Overall things look very positive.
1. Will DOS do spillover every quarter or only once every year?
2. What would be the number of eb2 and eb1 visa demand from ROW from October 2009 to September 2010?
the answer to question 2 can be obtained by getting the number of pending PERM Eb2 petitions with DOL, if we get the answer to question 1 from DOS then we can predict the visa bulletin with almost 90% + accuracy.
I don’t think DOS will do a quarter spillover. If DOS does not do a quarter spillover then it will disastrous for EB2 India because if DOL releases a ton of pending EB2 ROW perm applications they have been holding up for over an year in June-July-august 2010 time then DOS might not do a spillover at all for Eb2 India.
Thanks Sachug22.
Dec 2009 Visa Bulletin & Jan 2010 Visa Bulletin should give us clear picture about EB2 - I forward movement (if USCIS does spill over every Quarter this fiscal year - Most likely I expect the spill over to occur every Quarter this fiscal year).
Other important indicator would be the spillover received by Eb2 - I till Sep 2009. If spillover is more(clearing majority of 2004 - Jan 2005 cases) that would be the best case scenario.
Overall things look very positive.
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gdilla
05-11 12:21 PM
A pdf of a comparative analysis of Canadian taxes. A little dated, but still more accurate than a lot of info posted here.
more...
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bobzibub
07-10 11:48 AM
My wife suggested the same thing about an hour ago after getting our lawyer's visa bill for my worthless 485 application. (#$#$%you very much US government!)
It is much better to run to something than run from something. But maybe it is time.
It is much better to run to something than run from something. But maybe it is time.
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Subst_labor
03-17 11:09 PM
well if you feel offended, i am ready to offer my apologies. are you ready to take back your baseless accusations-that got me started up in the first place.
BTW, i dont even know what IV is??
BTW, i dont even know what IV is??
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mundada
12-13 02:00 PM
I think you have made a great argument. The original intention of diversity quota was to prevent people from certain European countries from becoming a dominant race in the US in 1920s.
However, the Civil Rights Act that protects national origin came into effect in 1964.
I am not a lawyer but have been taking business law course. I therefore believe if national origin discrimination is not allowed in the employment then unusually high (5 years) green card delays for certain nationalities is promoting national origin discrimination by detering employers from hiring people born in certain countries.
I think this argument will fly. I am not sure family based restrictions could be lifted but national origin quota restriction on employment and national origin non-discrimination in employment are definitely contradicting each other.
FYI:
TITLE VII of the 1964 CIVIL RIGHTS ACT (1964)
The protected classes: race, color, sex, religion & national origin. Employers with 15 or more employees. The most well known employment discrimination statute. Prohibits employment discrimination against the protected classes - race, color, sex, religion & national origin – in every aspect of employment, i.e. hiring, firing, promotion, training, working conditions, compensation, etc.
Hello All,
First and foremost, i must thank everyone from IV, who is working tirelessly to resolve the issues of retrogression in the GC process. As an affected individual I am very grateful that leaders of IV are ready to contribute so much effort for its goals. And even though I do not actively work for the IV agenda, I have contributed money to some IV action items.
I have a question/suggestion regarding the IV agenda. On IV's about page, pt number 2 asserts amongst other things,
The Discriminatory Per-Country Rationing of Green Cards That Exacerbates the Delays.
and further in the same point
We do not allow employers to discriminate hiring based on their nationality or country of origin. Therefore, the employment-based immigration, which is a derivative benefit of employment, should also be free from rationing based on nationality or country of birth.
I am curious to know what is the "legal" strength of these assertions is. Are they just "moral" statements or can the validity of these statements be tested in the legal framework of this country? In other words, my question is what is the constitutionality of the "Per Country Caps" in Employment / Family Based Immrigration procedures.
A lot of Laws and Statutes have been challenged in the Judicial System of USA. And many more are challenged every year. And if the laws are not constitutional then they can be repealed.
I am sure the leaders of IV must have thought about this argument however a quick search of the forums with 'constitutionality' as the search term did not return any results.
IV's efforts to utilize Lobbying to bring about change to alleviate/eliminate retrogression are certainly beneficial. However, if IV has not already considered and eliminated this legal argument, then it should explore whether there is any substance to this approach.
Hence this post. Below are some of the links that might be relevant.
wikipedia article on constitutionality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutionality)
wikipedia category on US immigration case law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:United_States_immigration_and_naturalizat ion_case_law)
thanks and sincerely,
--soljabhai
However, the Civil Rights Act that protects national origin came into effect in 1964.
I am not a lawyer but have been taking business law course. I therefore believe if national origin discrimination is not allowed in the employment then unusually high (5 years) green card delays for certain nationalities is promoting national origin discrimination by detering employers from hiring people born in certain countries.
I think this argument will fly. I am not sure family based restrictions could be lifted but national origin quota restriction on employment and national origin non-discrimination in employment are definitely contradicting each other.
FYI:
TITLE VII of the 1964 CIVIL RIGHTS ACT (1964)
The protected classes: race, color, sex, religion & national origin. Employers with 15 or more employees. The most well known employment discrimination statute. Prohibits employment discrimination against the protected classes - race, color, sex, religion & national origin – in every aspect of employment, i.e. hiring, firing, promotion, training, working conditions, compensation, etc.
Hello All,
First and foremost, i must thank everyone from IV, who is working tirelessly to resolve the issues of retrogression in the GC process. As an affected individual I am very grateful that leaders of IV are ready to contribute so much effort for its goals. And even though I do not actively work for the IV agenda, I have contributed money to some IV action items.
I have a question/suggestion regarding the IV agenda. On IV's about page, pt number 2 asserts amongst other things,
The Discriminatory Per-Country Rationing of Green Cards That Exacerbates the Delays.
and further in the same point
We do not allow employers to discriminate hiring based on their nationality or country of origin. Therefore, the employment-based immigration, which is a derivative benefit of employment, should also be free from rationing based on nationality or country of birth.
I am curious to know what is the "legal" strength of these assertions is. Are they just "moral" statements or can the validity of these statements be tested in the legal framework of this country? In other words, my question is what is the constitutionality of the "Per Country Caps" in Employment / Family Based Immrigration procedures.
A lot of Laws and Statutes have been challenged in the Judicial System of USA. And many more are challenged every year. And if the laws are not constitutional then they can be repealed.
I am sure the leaders of IV must have thought about this argument however a quick search of the forums with 'constitutionality' as the search term did not return any results.
IV's efforts to utilize Lobbying to bring about change to alleviate/eliminate retrogression are certainly beneficial. However, if IV has not already considered and eliminated this legal argument, then it should explore whether there is any substance to this approach.
Hence this post. Below are some of the links that might be relevant.
wikipedia article on constitutionality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutionality)
wikipedia category on US immigration case law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:United_States_immigration_and_naturalizat ion_case_law)
thanks and sincerely,
--soljabhai
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okuzmin
07-13 05:18 PM
Okuzmin,
All I meant was - TN is again just a visa after all and is just another version of the H1B hell. You ought to do better than just working for some one to pursue your American Dream right? What use it is to keep looking for an employer, extending your visas - is that not just a glorified version of H1B? True freedom is when you could quit an ass of any employer and come back home with your head held high :)
To qualify for TN status you need to become a Canadian citizen first, and that's what I'm going to do. It'll take about 4 years, maybe a little longer (3 year cumulative presence over the last 4 years + bureaucratic process of switching from PR to citizenship). With my Canadian passport I'll have many more options than with my current one. Working in TN status in the USA is just one of these options. It's mostly appealing to those who can get a better paying job in the USA. If I'm not happy with that job, I can always go back home -- to Canada.
Your concept of "true freedom" is rather limited, if you think about it. :) To me true freedom is when you can choose on any given day what you want to do: work, travel, sleep all day, have fun, etc. It requires much more than having a green card or even a US citizenship.
All I meant was - TN is again just a visa after all and is just another version of the H1B hell. You ought to do better than just working for some one to pursue your American Dream right? What use it is to keep looking for an employer, extending your visas - is that not just a glorified version of H1B? True freedom is when you could quit an ass of any employer and come back home with your head held high :)
To qualify for TN status you need to become a Canadian citizen first, and that's what I'm going to do. It'll take about 4 years, maybe a little longer (3 year cumulative presence over the last 4 years + bureaucratic process of switching from PR to citizenship). With my Canadian passport I'll have many more options than with my current one. Working in TN status in the USA is just one of these options. It's mostly appealing to those who can get a better paying job in the USA. If I'm not happy with that job, I can always go back home -- to Canada.
Your concept of "true freedom" is rather limited, if you think about it. :) To me true freedom is when you can choose on any given day what you want to do: work, travel, sleep all day, have fun, etc. It requires much more than having a green card or even a US citizenship.
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looivy
08-20 10:35 PM
There are other important immigration matters to be discussed.
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_TrueFacts
09-04 01:19 PM
Some more links on Corrupt YSR
http://mboard.rediff.com/newboard/permathread/s/bnews2008apr03ap/RE_Good_job_by_chandra_babu_naidu_in_exposing_corr uption-3.html
Tehelka - India's Independent Weekly News Magazine (http://www.tehelka.com/story_main41.asp?filename=Ne300509eating_the.asp)
YSR's evangelist son-in-law triggers 'war of words' - Express India (http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/YSRs-evangelist-soninlaw-triggers-war-of-words/421191/)
what is the mistake of Andhra Jyothi? :: Politics :: Telugulo.com - Telugu portal, Telugu cinema, andhra news, telugu politics, andhra cities, hyderabad (http://www.telugulo.com/view_news.php?id=3810&limit=10&pg=2)
Red Flag Hoisted on Satyam’s Lands (http://www.cpiml.org/liberation/year_2009/march_09/cover.html)
http://mboard.rediff.com/newboard/permathread/s/bnews2008apr03ap/RE_Good_job_by_chandra_babu_naidu_in_exposing_corr uption-3.html
Tehelka - India's Independent Weekly News Magazine (http://www.tehelka.com/story_main41.asp?filename=Ne300509eating_the.asp)
YSR's evangelist son-in-law triggers 'war of words' - Express India (http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/YSRs-evangelist-soninlaw-triggers-war-of-words/421191/)
what is the mistake of Andhra Jyothi? :: Politics :: Telugulo.com - Telugu portal, Telugu cinema, andhra news, telugu politics, andhra cities, hyderabad (http://www.telugulo.com/view_news.php?id=3810&limit=10&pg=2)
Red Flag Hoisted on Satyam’s Lands (http://www.cpiml.org/liberation/year_2009/march_09/cover.html)
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reddymjm
09-23 03:48 PM
As per the other thread HR5882 is dead for now.. So concentrate on this now...
gimmeacard
07-28 10:45 PM
Wait a min , how much had you?? Your status is Member and Kaushal's is a Donor.. wait a min let me think who is donating and who is a FREELOADER here.
The guy is doing something to make his life better, atleast making an attempt to do something better, why do you losers are trying to demotivate and shoot him down.
No work is small or big , good or bad , work is work.. you wanna do it , just do it , else walk to out. Do not exhibit the desi attitude "I won't do it as what someone will say and also do not let any one else do it." Grow up.
OOPS a bitter and exhausted Amwayiter has arrived
The guy is doing something to make his life better, atleast making an attempt to do something better, why do you losers are trying to demotivate and shoot him down.
No work is small or big , good or bad , work is work.. you wanna do it , just do it , else walk to out. Do not exhibit the desi attitude "I won't do it as what someone will say and also do not let any one else do it." Grow up.
OOPS a bitter and exhausted Amwayiter has arrived
h1techSlave
12-08 10:03 AM
Pinto, I strongly support your idea.
I guess many have given up and many are just trying to hang on to their jobs ..but don't give up ..just think about the peace of mind that a GC gives ..no more headaches from lawyers, USCIS, RFE's, employers, DL etc ..at the very least comment on this idea but before you dismiss it come up with a better idea (it is very stupid of people who just criticize but don't come up with alternative ideas).
----------------
what if all immigrants and members were to call their local realtors - show interest in buying a house and once the realtor is interested ..tell her / him that you are postponing your home buying decision since the green card has got delayed ..and maybe ask him / her to tell the NAR (national realtor agency) to speak about speeding green cards to legal immigrants who are already here ??
...if people are motivated then maybe we can do media campaign too ..
------
the above idea does not need any money / members can do it from the comfort of their homes ..please comment and either support this or come up with better idea ..Thanks in advance !!!
(if the idea sounds good ..then all members can spread the word in their community - i.e. temples, churches, local potlucks, subdivision, apartment, AMWAY meetings etc etc ..at the very least IV membership will increase)
I guess many have given up and many are just trying to hang on to their jobs ..but don't give up ..just think about the peace of mind that a GC gives ..no more headaches from lawyers, USCIS, RFE's, employers, DL etc ..at the very least comment on this idea but before you dismiss it come up with a better idea (it is very stupid of people who just criticize but don't come up with alternative ideas).
----------------
what if all immigrants and members were to call their local realtors - show interest in buying a house and once the realtor is interested ..tell her / him that you are postponing your home buying decision since the green card has got delayed ..and maybe ask him / her to tell the NAR (national realtor agency) to speak about speeding green cards to legal immigrants who are already here ??
...if people are motivated then maybe we can do media campaign too ..
------
the above idea does not need any money / members can do it from the comfort of their homes ..please comment and either support this or come up with better idea ..Thanks in advance !!!
(if the idea sounds good ..then all members can spread the word in their community - i.e. temples, churches, local potlucks, subdivision, apartment, AMWAY meetings etc etc ..at the very least IV membership will increase)
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