bfadlia
02-15 05:58 PM
Can't you understand the meaning of fair shot and equality ? Let people apply in FIFO . Don't tell me what US wants ? No one has a clear idea of it.and suddenly people like you for your personal interests have started opposing IV's skill based initiative because your dates moved a little ahead and supporting existing discriminatory laws. What will happen when they retrogress again to 1999 next month ? What will be your stand then? Did you come to IV rally ? Probably not because you think of your personal interest and have nothing to do with the big picture.
No. I can't understand fairshot and equality when major bodyshops from a certain nationality flood the market here with people from that certain nationality, u keep ignoring that and coming back to the stupid suggestion that it's only because u have more talent
suit urself, anyone who argues with you reasonably, tell them they are wrong and make assumptions about their motives and insult and alienate more members of your organization
good luck
No. I can't understand fairshot and equality when major bodyshops from a certain nationality flood the market here with people from that certain nationality, u keep ignoring that and coming back to the stupid suggestion that it's only because u have more talent
suit urself, anyone who argues with you reasonably, tell them they are wrong and make assumptions about their motives and insult and alienate more members of your organization
good luck
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soljabhai
12-14 03:33 PM
Personally I do not believe that the 7% limit is discrimination. The 7% limit for all countries appears to be equal, it leads to an issue as described below.
2 individuals, one from an oversubscribed country and one from an under subscribed country, leads to their career being affected by where they have been born.
Even though this situation might not be and in all probability is not discrimination, it does lead to conflict certain with certain other government regulations like EEO etc. Which one has precedence? Why?
I don't know the answer to these questions. Nor do I profess any super ability to even make the correct evaluation. But it does present itself to be a moral dilemma. Precisely the situations where the courts might be able to provide guidance (assuming they haven't already)
2 individuals, one from an oversubscribed country and one from an under subscribed country, leads to their career being affected by where they have been born.
Even though this situation might not be and in all probability is not discrimination, it does lead to conflict certain with certain other government regulations like EEO etc. Which one has precedence? Why?
I don't know the answer to these questions. Nor do I profess any super ability to even make the correct evaluation. But it does present itself to be a moral dilemma. Precisely the situations where the courts might be able to provide guidance (assuming they haven't already)
villamonte6100
12-14 01:12 PM
I know. I work for a prestigious law firm and I know how hard it is to become a lawyer.
There was a thread some time back about people considering going to law school and becoming their own lawyers. What I took out of it was that its not that easy. Besides going to school, you have to pass some tough state exams. I am quite happy with my lawyer. I paid some dough but its much cheaper than going to law school, and saves me time and headache.
Going to law school is not for everyone, definitely not for me (fat books scares me :eek:). I like the suggestion by garybanz about getting a qualified opinion. Just so that we know.
There was a thread some time back about people considering going to law school and becoming their own lawyers. What I took out of it was that its not that easy. Besides going to school, you have to pass some tough state exams. I am quite happy with my lawyer. I paid some dough but its much cheaper than going to law school, and saves me time and headache.
Going to law school is not for everyone, definitely not for me (fat books scares me :eek:). I like the suggestion by garybanz about getting a qualified opinion. Just so that we know.
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kittu1991
05-01 02:44 PM
It is a shame India does not act to protect the interests of its citizens even after this news came up.
Why do you think it is Indian citizens? Just because some politicians are saying so for their own gains all Tamilians in Srilanka are not Indian citizen.
Heck, even USA is trying harder than India by using its muscle to block billions of dollars of IMF funds to SL for not caring about ceasefire.
Are you suggesting India should start playing the role of world police as USA.
LTTE is the one who took the life of our beloved leader Rajiv Gandhi who would have taken India to much high in the world. And why should India protect them.
Why do you think it is Indian citizens? Just because some politicians are saying so for their own gains all Tamilians in Srilanka are not Indian citizen.
Heck, even USA is trying harder than India by using its muscle to block billions of dollars of IMF funds to SL for not caring about ceasefire.
Are you suggesting India should start playing the role of world police as USA.
LTTE is the one who took the life of our beloved leader Rajiv Gandhi who would have taken India to much high in the world. And why should India protect them.
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Macaca
06-26 09:43 PM
unless there are enough approvals happening simultaneously, dates would not retrogress in the middle of the month.
There were lot of approved cases with USCIS. They have started getting their GCs.
The # of current applicants who will get GCs will depened on # of approved cases USCIS had.
There were lot of approved cases with USCIS. They have started getting their GCs.
The # of current applicants who will get GCs will depened on # of approved cases USCIS had.
vrbest
07-31 03:40 PM
Thank you samay for taking time to answer my question.
My PD is Apr 06 EB3-India. I filed 485 on Jul 23, 2007.
Can I continue working for Company B until GC is received? or should I join company C before that?
Whats your EB3 PD. You can join company C anytime assuming that it has been more than six months since you filed your I-485. Company C can start the EB2 process should you choose to. However bear in mind that this process will also take some time.
Originally Posted by vrbest View Post
Hi,
I am on H1B (7th year and got extended for 3 yrs) and applied 485, received EAD from company A (140 approved).
I am asked to join Client by Company A due to some benefits both of us would receive. But Client wont support H1 so I need to use EAD.
Since EB3 is in very bad situation, Can I file new Perm, 140 and port my PD for EB2 using Company C for future position? I have position, salary and exp required for EB2. When should I join Company C if I choose this route?
Thanks in advance!
My PD is Apr 06 EB3-India. I filed 485 on Jul 23, 2007.
Can I continue working for Company B until GC is received? or should I join company C before that?
Whats your EB3 PD. You can join company C anytime assuming that it has been more than six months since you filed your I-485. Company C can start the EB2 process should you choose to. However bear in mind that this process will also take some time.
Originally Posted by vrbest View Post
Hi,
I am on H1B (7th year and got extended for 3 yrs) and applied 485, received EAD from company A (140 approved).
I am asked to join Client by Company A due to some benefits both of us would receive. But Client wont support H1 so I need to use EAD.
Since EB3 is in very bad situation, Can I file new Perm, 140 and port my PD for EB2 using Company C for future position? I have position, salary and exp required for EB2. When should I join Company C if I choose this route?
Thanks in advance!
more...
oguinan
02-15 11:48 PM
ouignan,
You can see that the UN panel is aware of the fact that racial discrimination manifests itself in disproportional representation (note the reference to the composition of the Supreme Court). It can be argued that the 7% country limit provides a pretext to discriminate against India/China/Mexico on the basis of ethnic or racial origin, and as such would run afoul of the convention.
I enjoyed that article, it's a great find. To be fair, it does offer both opinion and history. I do agree that the 7% limit is unfair but the answer is to increase the supply of green cards so that all qualified applicants get their green cards. The racial element is something everybody should be aware of. It's important that we all have a good understanding of the history of the immigration laws, in the united states and elsewhere. Perhaps "History of Immigration Laws" would be an interesting thread on it's own. At the very least we should add the wikipedia references that we discussed earlier into the resources section.
You can see that the UN panel is aware of the fact that racial discrimination manifests itself in disproportional representation (note the reference to the composition of the Supreme Court). It can be argued that the 7% country limit provides a pretext to discriminate against India/China/Mexico on the basis of ethnic or racial origin, and as such would run afoul of the convention.
I enjoyed that article, it's a great find. To be fair, it does offer both opinion and history. I do agree that the 7% limit is unfair but the answer is to increase the supply of green cards so that all qualified applicants get their green cards. The racial element is something everybody should be aware of. It's important that we all have a good understanding of the history of the immigration laws, in the united states and elsewhere. Perhaps "History of Immigration Laws" would be an interesting thread on it's own. At the very least we should add the wikipedia references that we discussed earlier into the resources section.
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sk2006
08-16 04:11 PM
Well, explain to me, if an american celebrity, such as Brad Pitt or George Clooney is detained at IGI for 66 mins, taken aside for secondary in another chamber, made to wait,
if robert gates (defense secretary), is asked to remove his shirt
if ex president bush or clinton is frisked for secondary, would that be acceptable to americans?
NO. We agree on the answer atleast. Do people in India have to KNOW them?
Question is why such things are not done in India?
Answer is: The security system there is like Swiss cheese -- Full of holes.
They would by pass the rules for celebrities!
Why do you expect USA to do the same?
if robert gates (defense secretary), is asked to remove his shirt
if ex president bush or clinton is frisked for secondary, would that be acceptable to americans?
NO. We agree on the answer atleast. Do people in India have to KNOW them?
Question is why such things are not done in India?
Answer is: The security system there is like Swiss cheese -- Full of holes.
They would by pass the rules for celebrities!
Why do you expect USA to do the same?
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nozerd
05-11 10:21 PM
A Canadian PR has the right to enter Canada (as opposed to a US PR who does not have the right and can be denied entrance by INS).
If you have not met 2 in 5 yr obligation Canadian Immigration will question you but let you in. They will give you a date on which you will have a court date with Immigration judge. Then its up to judge and you. You will have to give good reason why you were out ( waiting for US GC is not a good reason ).
Dont know about the reapplying part. Never heard of anyone having done it.
If you have not met 2 in 5 yr obligation Canadian Immigration will question you but let you in. They will give you a date on which you will have a court date with Immigration judge. Then its up to judge and you. You will have to give good reason why you were out ( waiting for US GC is not a good reason ).
Dont know about the reapplying part. Never heard of anyone having done it.
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chanduv23
07-04 08:50 AM
Chanduv thanks for your efforts. A correction: retrogression started in fall of 2004
I picked this from another post here in IV. Maybe we must have a sticky template so that everyone uses that template.
I picked this from another post here in IV. Maybe we must have a sticky template so that everyone uses that template.
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Pineapple
12-14 05:10 PM
I can understand your concerns.. and no, I do no resent your comment. I rather welcome a different viewpoint! IV, I emphatically maintain is made up ordinary people, like you and me, regardless of nationality and culture. I'm not a core member, but that, in itself, is the point - there is no top-down hierarchy, no "party line". IV is us. It is the very embodiment of the philosophy, "Of the people, by the people, and for the people" .
If it were any different, I would not be here.
That said, let me address your concerns. You (and anyone else) is free to disagree.
Let us say all country quotas are removed. In that case, yes, you will see a majority of GCs going to people of Indian and Chinese extraction. But to say that the removal of country quota is going to disadvantage people of other countries is a mathematical fallacy.
Let me explain it this way, using an analogy. Suppose you take part in a lotto game. The prizes (GC) are limited. Say there is only one prize and you have 100 participants. Also, further, let us say 80 are from California and 20 are from Pennsylvania.
If you play the game several times, you will see that 80 % of the prizes go to people from California.
But, that does not mean that you will improve your chances of winning if you move from Pennsylvania to California!!
Your odds are exactly the same - 1 in 100.
Removing country quotas would have the same consequence: If would actually give everyone a level playing field, and everyone would have the same shot at making the coveted quota of 140,000 EB GCs.
But when you have quotas, the probabilities are severely distorted. Especially when you have arbitrary quotas. (Why 7 %? Why not 9 %? Why not 5.247 %?).
In this case, if you are from India or China, you are seriously disadvantaged, while someone from a smaller country gets an unfair advantage. This is not complex political philosophy. It is school boy arithmetic.
You see what I mean?
When an Indian or Chinese asks for no country quotas, he/she is not asking for more.. He/she can no more control the wind as control where he/she is born. He/she is just asking to have a fair chance just as anyone else in the world. Why should he/she be penalized for being born in a big country?
I hope you see what I mean.
Anyway, the thread is about whether we can make a constitutionality argument in the court. The issue of "fairness" is quite settled as I explained above.
I know what I am about to say will trigger a lot of reaction and some resentment, but it has to be said on behalf of those who are not Indian. I think the per country limit is to ensure that people of all nationalities and races have an equal opportunity to obtain a green card and to ensure that no one nationality, group, or even sector (i.e. IT) monopolizes the so few visas that are available. In fact, in the visa lottery, countries become excluded when the number of immigrants from them reach a certain point, so we are lucky they do not do that in the Employment-based system!
I think that by wanting to remove the per country limit so more Indians can avail of the green card quota is both asking for "special treatment" and a slap in the face for all the non-Indian IV members. The more I read the threads on this site, the more I feel that this organization is geared just to one ethnic group. I am sure that Indians probably make up the majority of members, but the founders of IV (I hope) did not want this organization to become one-sided! Please be considerate of ALL members and try to come up with suggestions that would benefit ALL members!!!:mad:
If it were any different, I would not be here.
That said, let me address your concerns. You (and anyone else) is free to disagree.
Let us say all country quotas are removed. In that case, yes, you will see a majority of GCs going to people of Indian and Chinese extraction. But to say that the removal of country quota is going to disadvantage people of other countries is a mathematical fallacy.
Let me explain it this way, using an analogy. Suppose you take part in a lotto game. The prizes (GC) are limited. Say there is only one prize and you have 100 participants. Also, further, let us say 80 are from California and 20 are from Pennsylvania.
If you play the game several times, you will see that 80 % of the prizes go to people from California.
But, that does not mean that you will improve your chances of winning if you move from Pennsylvania to California!!
Your odds are exactly the same - 1 in 100.
Removing country quotas would have the same consequence: If would actually give everyone a level playing field, and everyone would have the same shot at making the coveted quota of 140,000 EB GCs.
But when you have quotas, the probabilities are severely distorted. Especially when you have arbitrary quotas. (Why 7 %? Why not 9 %? Why not 5.247 %?).
In this case, if you are from India or China, you are seriously disadvantaged, while someone from a smaller country gets an unfair advantage. This is not complex political philosophy. It is school boy arithmetic.
You see what I mean?
When an Indian or Chinese asks for no country quotas, he/she is not asking for more.. He/she can no more control the wind as control where he/she is born. He/she is just asking to have a fair chance just as anyone else in the world. Why should he/she be penalized for being born in a big country?
I hope you see what I mean.
Anyway, the thread is about whether we can make a constitutionality argument in the court. The issue of "fairness" is quite settled as I explained above.
I know what I am about to say will trigger a lot of reaction and some resentment, but it has to be said on behalf of those who are not Indian. I think the per country limit is to ensure that people of all nationalities and races have an equal opportunity to obtain a green card and to ensure that no one nationality, group, or even sector (i.e. IT) monopolizes the so few visas that are available. In fact, in the visa lottery, countries become excluded when the number of immigrants from them reach a certain point, so we are lucky they do not do that in the Employment-based system!
I think that by wanting to remove the per country limit so more Indians can avail of the green card quota is both asking for "special treatment" and a slap in the face for all the non-Indian IV members. The more I read the threads on this site, the more I feel that this organization is geared just to one ethnic group. I am sure that Indians probably make up the majority of members, but the founders of IV (I hope) did not want this organization to become one-sided! Please be considerate of ALL members and try to come up with suggestions that would benefit ALL members!!!:mad:
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conchshell
07-29 02:50 PM
Well, I think the scenario is different. It is somewhere inbetween those two thought processes:
1. They are counting on CP case; but not much. If you look in the past stats about EB cases processed via CP, it is usually a very small number (and this would just make sense: if you are doing EB green card, you will be working in US and will do AOS). CP cases can not be more than several hundreds.
2. The major hopes DOS has is on USCIS to process large number of cases. And they ARE capable of doing so; but only RANDOMLY (not in the order of PD or FIFO or anything like that). It is very unlikely that DOS will let USCIS waste any visa numbers. Because it is DOS's responsibility, not USCIS's. And that was main reasoning behind July Fiasco; where DOS wanted to prove that it is not DOS but USCIS who is responsible for the wastage (remember, there were some 60000 visa numbers unused at that time). This time, they are playing the game of "cooperation". DOS will advance dates only till USCIS can handle (not everything Current); and in exchange USCIS will use up all the numbers.
If USCIS can not show that they have used up at least 75% (or something in that range) of the remaining visa numbers (which are probably in the range predicted in this thread giver or take few thousands) by mid august, DOS will further advance dates in sept. If USCIS shows that they used up most of the numbers, dates may go back. It would not matter what the dates are in sept as the end result is the same: all the remaining visa numbers will be used (probably randomly) to people with PDs upto mid 2006.
I do not buy the "CP using numbers" theory from Ron or Murthy. It is all about allowing USCIS to use the numbers randomly and let them pick the "low hanging fruits" (as they usually like).
For the next fiscal year, they will move dates back to mid 2004 (just a wild guess), but I dont think it matters any way...(till the end of the fiscal year). USCIS will probably go in hibernation again till the last quarter of next year and the date will advance again dramatically (may be upto 2008) to let them use all the left over/spilled numbers.
I think that its a reasonable analysis.
1. They are counting on CP case; but not much. If you look in the past stats about EB cases processed via CP, it is usually a very small number (and this would just make sense: if you are doing EB green card, you will be working in US and will do AOS). CP cases can not be more than several hundreds.
2. The major hopes DOS has is on USCIS to process large number of cases. And they ARE capable of doing so; but only RANDOMLY (not in the order of PD or FIFO or anything like that). It is very unlikely that DOS will let USCIS waste any visa numbers. Because it is DOS's responsibility, not USCIS's. And that was main reasoning behind July Fiasco; where DOS wanted to prove that it is not DOS but USCIS who is responsible for the wastage (remember, there were some 60000 visa numbers unused at that time). This time, they are playing the game of "cooperation". DOS will advance dates only till USCIS can handle (not everything Current); and in exchange USCIS will use up all the numbers.
If USCIS can not show that they have used up at least 75% (or something in that range) of the remaining visa numbers (which are probably in the range predicted in this thread giver or take few thousands) by mid august, DOS will further advance dates in sept. If USCIS shows that they used up most of the numbers, dates may go back. It would not matter what the dates are in sept as the end result is the same: all the remaining visa numbers will be used (probably randomly) to people with PDs upto mid 2006.
I do not buy the "CP using numbers" theory from Ron or Murthy. It is all about allowing USCIS to use the numbers randomly and let them pick the "low hanging fruits" (as they usually like).
For the next fiscal year, they will move dates back to mid 2004 (just a wild guess), but I dont think it matters any way...(till the end of the fiscal year). USCIS will probably go in hibernation again till the last quarter of next year and the date will advance again dramatically (may be upto 2008) to let them use all the left over/spilled numbers.
I think that its a reasonable analysis.
more...
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patfanboston
05-12 09:25 PM
@venetian:
I was not responding to the Sri Lankan issue - please don't read it as such. As I said, my comment was tangential to the discussion thread. I was just writing about my observation of the behavior and attitude of Tamils in general in India.
@jerrome:
Your point about MGR/Jayalalitha/Rajanikanth just proves my point. These people migrated to Tamil Nadu, made it their home and 'assimilated' by learning Tamil and considering themselves Tamil and showing their love for Tamil - they did not become famous in TN by propagating Telugu/Malayalam/Kannada. Now, if only you could provide some examples of the other way around - Tamils who migrated elsewhere and who made the host cultures proud. Can you?
There definitely are Telugu/Malayalam/Kannada natives in TN - but without exception, they have 'Tamilized' themselves to a great extent to live a normal life. Is the converse true?
I was not responding to the Sri Lankan issue - please don't read it as such. As I said, my comment was tangential to the discussion thread. I was just writing about my observation of the behavior and attitude of Tamils in general in India.
@jerrome:
Your point about MGR/Jayalalitha/Rajanikanth just proves my point. These people migrated to Tamil Nadu, made it their home and 'assimilated' by learning Tamil and considering themselves Tamil and showing their love for Tamil - they did not become famous in TN by propagating Telugu/Malayalam/Kannada. Now, if only you could provide some examples of the other way around - Tamils who migrated elsewhere and who made the host cultures proud. Can you?
There definitely are Telugu/Malayalam/Kannada natives in TN - but without exception, they have 'Tamilized' themselves to a great extent to live a normal life. Is the converse true?
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garybanz
12-14 05:32 PM
Guys,
I think we have spent enough time discussing this, please respond to this post if you are willing to share the cost of taking this discussion to a top Constitutional attorney. (just the cost of initial discussion...not the actual case)
Also if some one can point me in the right direction on finding the right attorney for this question then I'll really appreciate it.
Thanks.
I think we have spent enough time discussing this, please respond to this post if you are willing to share the cost of taking this discussion to a top Constitutional attorney. (just the cost of initial discussion...not the actual case)
Also if some one can point me in the right direction on finding the right attorney for this question then I'll really appreciate it.
Thanks.
more...
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soljabhai
12-14 09:28 AM
It is not the case that a law cannot be challenged. All the authority of the various government branches (legislative, judicial and executive) is derived from the powers created in the constitution. So even if congress creates a law and president signs it, it can still be challenged if it is found to be contradicting with the constitution from which the government branches derive their authority.
If that was not the case then "Separate would still have been equal" and we would have still been living in a divided society with whites having different schools, hotels and theaters than everyone else. The Supreme Court ruled that "Separate cannot be equal" and all the laws for separating the different ethnicities immediately became unconstitutional and hence invalid.
The question is not that whether any law can be challenged but whether this rule regarding per country ceilings can be. Only a constitutional expert can answer that question.
If that was not the case then "Separate would still have been equal" and we would have still been living in a divided society with whites having different schools, hotels and theaters than everyone else. The Supreme Court ruled that "Separate cannot be equal" and all the laws for separating the different ethnicities immediately became unconstitutional and hence invalid.
The question is not that whether any law can be challenged but whether this rule regarding per country ceilings can be. Only a constitutional expert can answer that question.
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sobyb
05-02 12:55 AM
I think judging Gandhiji in the context of Indian History is beyond my pay grade. I am sure about the fact that his ideology would remain relevant for much more time in human history.
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punjabi
07-22 10:40 AM
People in Quixstar and Amway can best be described as organisms who would like to prey on your humble attitude so they can eat away your wallet including your peace of mind. Like FBI, they are supposed to extract all the information about your job, relatives, wife, cousins, friends, and so on. They won't feel bad to ask as personal questions as what time you go to work, what you do on weekends, which movies you watch, what color of underwear you wear, etc. etc.
Shameless creatures!
Their bodies still run a blood of human beings (so scientifically they are still classified as among the species of humanoids) but they are left to pest around the people at places like malls and shopping centers to suck the blood out of them, just like the brown-colored-termites in the backyard of my previous house.
It is run by people with covert personalities. Look at the definition of the word 'covert' and you will understand.
One day, I was talking to my uncle in punjabi language over the phone at Target store. After the conversation ended, I found a guy standing next to me in the same aisle. He told me "You speak punjabi too? It is hard to find people who speak punjabi here. By the way, I am also from Punjab" and he extends his hands forward. He asked me my orkut id, facebook id, phone number, which company I work for, when I do get off from work, when can I meet him for a cup of coffee. Thankfully, I knew these kind of people before.
One of my friends told me that Quixstar was first known as Amway in US. And they had to change the name to avoid taxes or some kind of heavy penalty.
Next time you step out of your house, remember what your mommy told you 20 years ago:
DON'T TALK TO STRANGERS. IF THEY OFFER YOU A CANDY, JUST SMILE. POLITELY SAY NO AND WALK AWAY.
Shameless creatures!
Their bodies still run a blood of human beings (so scientifically they are still classified as among the species of humanoids) but they are left to pest around the people at places like malls and shopping centers to suck the blood out of them, just like the brown-colored-termites in the backyard of my previous house.
It is run by people with covert personalities. Look at the definition of the word 'covert' and you will understand.
One day, I was talking to my uncle in punjabi language over the phone at Target store. After the conversation ended, I found a guy standing next to me in the same aisle. He told me "You speak punjabi too? It is hard to find people who speak punjabi here. By the way, I am also from Punjab" and he extends his hands forward. He asked me my orkut id, facebook id, phone number, which company I work for, when I do get off from work, when can I meet him for a cup of coffee. Thankfully, I knew these kind of people before.
One of my friends told me that Quixstar was first known as Amway in US. And they had to change the name to avoid taxes or some kind of heavy penalty.
Next time you step out of your house, remember what your mommy told you 20 years ago:
DON'T TALK TO STRANGERS. IF THEY OFFER YOU A CANDY, JUST SMILE. POLITELY SAY NO AND WALK AWAY.
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dallasdude
06-12 04:11 PM
Guys, I've heard (and only heard - don't red me now) that Cognizant has its H-1Bs being rejected and I've heard as far as this that some of the people in Cognizant who got green card through EB-1 category have been deported due to investigation after complaints regarding misuse of EB-1 category by these companies.
has anyone else heard the same?
That's extremely wonderful news. thanks for sharing.
has anyone else heard the same?
That's extremely wonderful news. thanks for sharing.
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sankap
07-13 11:18 AM
Here's an article that appeared in Outlook (India) magazine 8 years ago. Apparently, the situation hasn't changed much since then:
http://outlookindia.com/full.asp?fname=international1&fodname=19990125&sid=1
Canada...The Grass Isn't Greener
Outlook: Jan 25, 1999
It's a dream gone sour. Thousands of Indian immigrants who land up in Canada are, more often than not, greeted with unemployment, racism, culture shocks...
SOHAILA CHARNALIA
"I didn't come here to be a chowkidar. I came here believing it to be a land of opportunity; a country that has never known the nepotism, the corruption, the shortages of India. I find I have only substituted one country for another... certainly not one set of values for another, as I hoped. " For Dr Gurdial Singh Dhillon, who was made to believe his qualifications would land him a good job fast, Canada was a real disappointment. When he did find work, it was that of a security guard. This, when the United Nations has declared Canada the best country to live in.
Some 200,000 people migrate to Canada every year, a majority from Asia. Hong Kong heads the list, followed by India, China, Taiwan and the Philippines. According to the Citizenship & Immigration Canada report, 21,249 Indians migrated to Canada in 1996 alone. (The high commission in Delhi, however, put the figure at 17,682). For many of them, especially those who are qualified professionals, dreams die fast. The life they face is never quite as rosy as made out by money-raking immigration lawyers.
Is the UN report the only reason for the increase in Indian applications for immigration? That, and the fact that it is easier to get entry into Canada than any other western country, says a Delhi-based immigration lawyer. Also, the fastest way of getting immigration to the US is through Canada.
Dhillon's disappointment is echoed by others. "I should have done my own homework before I applied", rues Aparna Shirodhkar, an architect from Mumbai, working as a saleswoman in a department store. "My husband is unemployed. I am the sole earner for a family of four. Sometimes I feel like running back". For Raheela Wasim, who's gone from being a schoolteacher in India to a telemarketer here, the experience was very discouraging, very disheartening. "I started losing confidence in myself. I felt I was not capable of the job market here".
Jobs are the sore point with Indian immigrants. The irony is, they are often more qualified than their Canadian peers, yet they end up with either no work, or with entry-level jobs that have no future. "I was not told that you require a Canadian degree to get a job here", says Paramjeet Parmar, a postgraduate in biochemistry from Bombay University. Parmar works as a telemarketer, which has turned her from an elite professional to an unskilled, daily wage labourer. Ditto Opinder Khosla, a mechanical engineer from India, who has ended up as a salesman. "I found it difficult to even get an interview call", he says. The Canadian authorities are non-committal about the social and economic devaluation that the country imposes on immigrants.
"You can't come thinking you can just walk in and get a job in your profession", says Isabel Basset, minister of citizenship, culture and recreation, responsible for handling immigrants' woes in Canada's largest province, Ontario. But she admits that the licensing bodies regulating the professions need to be more accepting of people trained elsewhere.
That effort could only come from the government, argues Demetrius Oriopolis, co-author of Access, a government-commissioned report on assessing qualifications of newcomers, a 10-year-old report whose recommendations have still to be implemented. The report suggests certain rules of equivalence should be made binding on the regulatory bodies, which are exclusionist by nature.
But Basset won't even hear of making the regulatory bodies accountable: "We believe in private enterprise with a minimum of government checks. Besides, she argues, the exercise would cost millions of dollars".
Needless to say, the organisations are gleeful. Only professional bodies have the ability to determine what constitutes competence in a particular profession, was the cold response of the spokesperson for the Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants, an institution that's responsible for the unemployment as well as under-employment of hundreds of qualified chartered accountants from India. They do not grant licences for professional practice, because Indian qualifications are not acceptable.
"What kind of society are we creating? Is it a new form of slavery?" asks an irate Bhausaheb Ubale, Canada's former human rights commissioner. Qualified immigrants work as drivers, guards. If this isn't job discrimination, what is? Dr Ubale lobbied intensely before Indians were accepted in the media. They now hold jobs as reporters and anchors, he says, but a lot more has to be done.
While skilled men may not be able to find jobs, their less qualified wives find it easier because they accept whatever comes their way. In several cases, the wives earn and support their husbands who are busy upgrading themselves, by studying for a Canadian degree. The working wife sometimes slogs away at three jobs. Sumitra starts at 7 am at her first job, teaching immigrants English; her second job as telemarketer starts at 4 pm. She gets back home around 8 pm, after which she begins selling cosmetics and household goods door to door. Till midnight. Sumitra supports three students, her husband and two school-going children.
The other problems Indians face here are the high taxes, high mortgage payments for new homes and the sort of hidebound laws that the benign anarchy back home hardly prepares them for. "You can't run a red light, you can't escape from a hit-and-run site even if you are just the witness, you can't smoke in public. Too many rules, so different from home", says Harminder Singh.
Two 'Indian' practices that do exist here, however, cause immigrants the maximum trouble. They are sifarish baazi (nepotism) and mufat ka kaam (free work). The Canadians, of course, have given them sophisticated terminologies, the former is referred to as 'networking' and the latter, 'volunteerism'. In a country where you are never encouraged to 'drop in' to meet someone, where the fax, the computer or the phone is used to complete most transactions, a job-seeking immigrant often has the phone put down on him. Polite but firm secretaries block access, unless the caller can drop a magic name that can help him gain entry. It takes at least a year for even the most enterprising immigrant to get to know somebody who can help him, before he can get a job at all.
'Networking' goes hand in hand with 'volunteerism'. Many immigrants put in a year of free service before they are given the job. Most writers and anchors of Asian origin are given only part-time jobs, paid by assignment and with no fringe benefits. The company insists on the word 'freelance' on their business cards, to make it clear they have not been hired by the company, and hence can't demand higher pay or any benefits. They can, and often are, fired at will.
Perhaps the greatest problem in Canada is the one that is least articulated--racism. According to a diversity report on Toronto (said to be the most ethnically diverse city in the world), the year 2000 will see its minority becoming its majority that is, 54 per cent of Toronto's population by the end of the millennium will be non-Whites. Keeping that in mind, it warned, if the discrimination against them in education, employment, income and housing, or incidents of hate are not addressed, it will lead to a growing sense of frustration.
"All our problems exist because of racism", sums up Anita Ferrao, who works in a firm. Anita has worked for them for three years and has got neither promotion nor raise. "As an Indian immigrant, you can never reach the top. They'll see to that. It's better to bring in some money here and start a business. It's the only way you'll do well here and be respected. "
But then if life is so tough here, why do people give up everything back home and come? The answer is the rosy picture of North America, inculcated right from childhood. Everything 'American' is considered superior. Better food, better homes, better life.
Each potential immigrant pays at least Rs 2 lakh chasing that dream. Multiply that by the thousands of Indians admitted each year, and further, by the number of immigrants accepted from all over the world, and you hit upon the most lucrative business today in Canada. According to a leading White immigration lawyer here, who prefers to remain anonymous, his own fee is 8,000 Canadian dollars, which comes to Rs 2,38,000. The government levies extra charges.
What do immigration lawyers advice potential immigrants? "Do your homework, before deciding to go ahead with your application. Arm yourself with facts about Canada. And when you do apply, stick to the truth yourself. You won't be in for unpleasant surprises, then. The rest is up to one's initiative and optimism." Indians need that, says one lawyer, as many of them fall into depression: the changes are just too much. But, he clarifies, Canada is the best. Where else will you find a land of opportunity, that still cares about its people? That's what the Indians come looking for. And haven't discovered yet.
http://outlookindia.com/full.asp?fname=international1&fodname=19990125&sid=1
Canada...The Grass Isn't Greener
Outlook: Jan 25, 1999
It's a dream gone sour. Thousands of Indian immigrants who land up in Canada are, more often than not, greeted with unemployment, racism, culture shocks...
SOHAILA CHARNALIA
"I didn't come here to be a chowkidar. I came here believing it to be a land of opportunity; a country that has never known the nepotism, the corruption, the shortages of India. I find I have only substituted one country for another... certainly not one set of values for another, as I hoped. " For Dr Gurdial Singh Dhillon, who was made to believe his qualifications would land him a good job fast, Canada was a real disappointment. When he did find work, it was that of a security guard. This, when the United Nations has declared Canada the best country to live in.
Some 200,000 people migrate to Canada every year, a majority from Asia. Hong Kong heads the list, followed by India, China, Taiwan and the Philippines. According to the Citizenship & Immigration Canada report, 21,249 Indians migrated to Canada in 1996 alone. (The high commission in Delhi, however, put the figure at 17,682). For many of them, especially those who are qualified professionals, dreams die fast. The life they face is never quite as rosy as made out by money-raking immigration lawyers.
Is the UN report the only reason for the increase in Indian applications for immigration? That, and the fact that it is easier to get entry into Canada than any other western country, says a Delhi-based immigration lawyer. Also, the fastest way of getting immigration to the US is through Canada.
Dhillon's disappointment is echoed by others. "I should have done my own homework before I applied", rues Aparna Shirodhkar, an architect from Mumbai, working as a saleswoman in a department store. "My husband is unemployed. I am the sole earner for a family of four. Sometimes I feel like running back". For Raheela Wasim, who's gone from being a schoolteacher in India to a telemarketer here, the experience was very discouraging, very disheartening. "I started losing confidence in myself. I felt I was not capable of the job market here".
Jobs are the sore point with Indian immigrants. The irony is, they are often more qualified than their Canadian peers, yet they end up with either no work, or with entry-level jobs that have no future. "I was not told that you require a Canadian degree to get a job here", says Paramjeet Parmar, a postgraduate in biochemistry from Bombay University. Parmar works as a telemarketer, which has turned her from an elite professional to an unskilled, daily wage labourer. Ditto Opinder Khosla, a mechanical engineer from India, who has ended up as a salesman. "I found it difficult to even get an interview call", he says. The Canadian authorities are non-committal about the social and economic devaluation that the country imposes on immigrants.
"You can't come thinking you can just walk in and get a job in your profession", says Isabel Basset, minister of citizenship, culture and recreation, responsible for handling immigrants' woes in Canada's largest province, Ontario. But she admits that the licensing bodies regulating the professions need to be more accepting of people trained elsewhere.
That effort could only come from the government, argues Demetrius Oriopolis, co-author of Access, a government-commissioned report on assessing qualifications of newcomers, a 10-year-old report whose recommendations have still to be implemented. The report suggests certain rules of equivalence should be made binding on the regulatory bodies, which are exclusionist by nature.
But Basset won't even hear of making the regulatory bodies accountable: "We believe in private enterprise with a minimum of government checks. Besides, she argues, the exercise would cost millions of dollars".
Needless to say, the organisations are gleeful. Only professional bodies have the ability to determine what constitutes competence in a particular profession, was the cold response of the spokesperson for the Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants, an institution that's responsible for the unemployment as well as under-employment of hundreds of qualified chartered accountants from India. They do not grant licences for professional practice, because Indian qualifications are not acceptable.
"What kind of society are we creating? Is it a new form of slavery?" asks an irate Bhausaheb Ubale, Canada's former human rights commissioner. Qualified immigrants work as drivers, guards. If this isn't job discrimination, what is? Dr Ubale lobbied intensely before Indians were accepted in the media. They now hold jobs as reporters and anchors, he says, but a lot more has to be done.
While skilled men may not be able to find jobs, their less qualified wives find it easier because they accept whatever comes their way. In several cases, the wives earn and support their husbands who are busy upgrading themselves, by studying for a Canadian degree. The working wife sometimes slogs away at three jobs. Sumitra starts at 7 am at her first job, teaching immigrants English; her second job as telemarketer starts at 4 pm. She gets back home around 8 pm, after which she begins selling cosmetics and household goods door to door. Till midnight. Sumitra supports three students, her husband and two school-going children.
The other problems Indians face here are the high taxes, high mortgage payments for new homes and the sort of hidebound laws that the benign anarchy back home hardly prepares them for. "You can't run a red light, you can't escape from a hit-and-run site even if you are just the witness, you can't smoke in public. Too many rules, so different from home", says Harminder Singh.
Two 'Indian' practices that do exist here, however, cause immigrants the maximum trouble. They are sifarish baazi (nepotism) and mufat ka kaam (free work). The Canadians, of course, have given them sophisticated terminologies, the former is referred to as 'networking' and the latter, 'volunteerism'. In a country where you are never encouraged to 'drop in' to meet someone, where the fax, the computer or the phone is used to complete most transactions, a job-seeking immigrant often has the phone put down on him. Polite but firm secretaries block access, unless the caller can drop a magic name that can help him gain entry. It takes at least a year for even the most enterprising immigrant to get to know somebody who can help him, before he can get a job at all.
'Networking' goes hand in hand with 'volunteerism'. Many immigrants put in a year of free service before they are given the job. Most writers and anchors of Asian origin are given only part-time jobs, paid by assignment and with no fringe benefits. The company insists on the word 'freelance' on their business cards, to make it clear they have not been hired by the company, and hence can't demand higher pay or any benefits. They can, and often are, fired at will.
Perhaps the greatest problem in Canada is the one that is least articulated--racism. According to a diversity report on Toronto (said to be the most ethnically diverse city in the world), the year 2000 will see its minority becoming its majority that is, 54 per cent of Toronto's population by the end of the millennium will be non-Whites. Keeping that in mind, it warned, if the discrimination against them in education, employment, income and housing, or incidents of hate are not addressed, it will lead to a growing sense of frustration.
"All our problems exist because of racism", sums up Anita Ferrao, who works in a firm. Anita has worked for them for three years and has got neither promotion nor raise. "As an Indian immigrant, you can never reach the top. They'll see to that. It's better to bring in some money here and start a business. It's the only way you'll do well here and be respected. "
But then if life is so tough here, why do people give up everything back home and come? The answer is the rosy picture of North America, inculcated right from childhood. Everything 'American' is considered superior. Better food, better homes, better life.
Each potential immigrant pays at least Rs 2 lakh chasing that dream. Multiply that by the thousands of Indians admitted each year, and further, by the number of immigrants accepted from all over the world, and you hit upon the most lucrative business today in Canada. According to a leading White immigration lawyer here, who prefers to remain anonymous, his own fee is 8,000 Canadian dollars, which comes to Rs 2,38,000. The government levies extra charges.
What do immigration lawyers advice potential immigrants? "Do your homework, before deciding to go ahead with your application. Arm yourself with facts about Canada. And when you do apply, stick to the truth yourself. You won't be in for unpleasant surprises, then. The rest is up to one's initiative and optimism." Indians need that, says one lawyer, as many of them fall into depression: the changes are just too much. But, he clarifies, Canada is the best. Where else will you find a land of opportunity, that still cares about its people? That's what the Indians come looking for. And haven't discovered yet.
unitednations
02-19 12:20 AM
Since I am new to the boards; I don't know how much statistical analysis has been performed.
Here is some good material or ways to get the point across.
Following is hyperlink from OONET regarding stem positions.
http://online.onetcenter.org/find/stem/title?t=1&g=Go
Click on it and then pick a "on demand" profession and scroll to the bottom. At the bottom of each profession will have median salary; number of people doing the job in 2004 and projected need for the next 10 years.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Following is an excerpt for accountants:
Wages & Employment Trends
National
Median wages data collected from Accountants and Auditors.
Employment data collected from Accountants and Auditors.
Median wages (2004) $24.67 hourly, $51,310 annual
Employment (2004) 1,176,000 employees
Projected growth (2004-2014) Faster than average (21-35%)
Projected need (2004-2014) 486,000 additional employees
----------------------------------------------------------------
The IT jobs is broken down by manager, software engineer, programmer, etc., so a few numbers need to be added up.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Go to americas job bank, careerbuilder, monster and type the in demand professions, ie., "software engineer". See how many postings there are. There will probably be duplicates between the different boards.
See if careerbuilder, ajb, monster, etc., will give you statistics on how many of those positions were filled.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Try to see if you can get prevailing wage determination for eb2 positions across the country. I know off hand that an eb2 IT position in Edision is over $90,000; new hamshire is anywhere from $89,000 to $113,000; Austin, TX is about $106,000; Virigina is close to $106,000 (generally if it is bachelors plus five years of experience; it is in six digits or close to six digits).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The above will give a pretty good sense of the positions being sponsored; the salary levels, and the demand. Only thing missing is to correlate U.S. university graudates over the next 10 years and the gap between demand and supply of the skilled workers. Analysis has to be more facts then words and can't be too long winded.
Here is some good material or ways to get the point across.
Following is hyperlink from OONET regarding stem positions.
http://online.onetcenter.org/find/stem/title?t=1&g=Go
Click on it and then pick a "on demand" profession and scroll to the bottom. At the bottom of each profession will have median salary; number of people doing the job in 2004 and projected need for the next 10 years.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Following is an excerpt for accountants:
Wages & Employment Trends
National
Median wages data collected from Accountants and Auditors.
Employment data collected from Accountants and Auditors.
Median wages (2004) $24.67 hourly, $51,310 annual
Employment (2004) 1,176,000 employees
Projected growth (2004-2014) Faster than average (21-35%)
Projected need (2004-2014) 486,000 additional employees
----------------------------------------------------------------
The IT jobs is broken down by manager, software engineer, programmer, etc., so a few numbers need to be added up.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Go to americas job bank, careerbuilder, monster and type the in demand professions, ie., "software engineer". See how many postings there are. There will probably be duplicates between the different boards.
See if careerbuilder, ajb, monster, etc., will give you statistics on how many of those positions were filled.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Try to see if you can get prevailing wage determination for eb2 positions across the country. I know off hand that an eb2 IT position in Edision is over $90,000; new hamshire is anywhere from $89,000 to $113,000; Austin, TX is about $106,000; Virigina is close to $106,000 (generally if it is bachelors plus five years of experience; it is in six digits or close to six digits).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The above will give a pretty good sense of the positions being sponsored; the salary levels, and the demand. Only thing missing is to correlate U.S. university graudates over the next 10 years and the gap between demand and supply of the skilled workers. Analysis has to be more facts then words and can't be too long winded.
bayarea07
07-22 02:54 PM
I would agree with you on this for normal people but not for amway folks, when you are continously being pushed to being on the verge of harrasment then i would think that every human being would behave the way as we do
Moreover they are the ones who push people to behave that way.
Respect is all give and take.
I have been following this thread for last couple of days and I feel I need to make few points. I remember when this amway/qucikstar thing started several of my close friends got entangled and tried to involve me. However, every time I bailed myself out by clearly mentioning to them "Right now, making lot of money is not in my top priorities. I want to focus on my carrier." Fortunately, I was able to fend off the proposals and clearly make my point.
In this thread, several of you are mentioning to ridicule, diminish, embarrass, and even socially out casting an amway/quickstar member. I feel its going a little bit too far. If you dont like to be in the amway/quickstar business stay clear of it, nobody will be able to force you in it. Setting up anti-amway websites, sharing names of the "bugging" amway members, distributing their phone numbers, and destroying their social reputation is harming the person personally, not the amway/quickstar business. We all know by now the amway/quickstar is a scam, majority of its signed members end up losing valuable time and money. How do you feel if some of your mentioned action emotionally push a distressed person off the cliff. Think about it a bit !!!
Moreover they are the ones who push people to behave that way.
Respect is all give and take.
I have been following this thread for last couple of days and I feel I need to make few points. I remember when this amway/qucikstar thing started several of my close friends got entangled and tried to involve me. However, every time I bailed myself out by clearly mentioning to them "Right now, making lot of money is not in my top priorities. I want to focus on my carrier." Fortunately, I was able to fend off the proposals and clearly make my point.
In this thread, several of you are mentioning to ridicule, diminish, embarrass, and even socially out casting an amway/quickstar member. I feel its going a little bit too far. If you dont like to be in the amway/quickstar business stay clear of it, nobody will be able to force you in it. Setting up anti-amway websites, sharing names of the "bugging" amway members, distributing their phone numbers, and destroying their social reputation is harming the person personally, not the amway/quickstar business. We all know by now the amway/quickstar is a scam, majority of its signed members end up losing valuable time and money. How do you feel if some of your mentioned action emotionally push a distressed person off the cliff. Think about it a bit !!!
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